Why You Need Consent & Ethics in Your Stories with Fai Hassan
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Today we're talking about how nonprofits share their stories - especially in the digital age - and the ethical issues that can arise from how we choose to share stories. We'll explore how lived experience influences how we portray community members and how we can can use social media to connect with supporters while staying true to our values.
For this conversation, I'm excited to have Fai Hassan with me, an expert in digital fundraising. She's the Associate Director of Digital Fundraising at Public Outreach. Fai's role is all about helping non-profit organizations create digital campaigns that engage supporters and convert them into donors. She's got a wealth of experience working with various non-profits, but what really sets her apart is her advocacy and her knack for crafting, executing, and managing compelling campaigns.
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Key Episode Highlights:
Changing How We Tell Fundraising Stories: We'll explore the vital importance of sharing stories that respect and empower oppressed and marginalized communities. It's crucial to collect stories from diverse perspectives to give a complete picture of the work we do and of the people who benefit from it.
Using Social Media for Nonprofits: Social media platforms have their own cultures and demands, and it is not a one-size-fits-all for small nonprofits. We'll talk about how to use platforms like Meta for finding donors and if you should be investing time in places like Pinterest, TikTok, and Reddit.
Ethics and Consent: Delving into the ethical side of things, we'll discuss the responsible use of people's images and stories. . Fai will underscore the significance of obtaining consent regularly, avoiding the risks of perpetuating stereotypes, especially when dealing with AI-generated imagery. Upholding the dignity of the individuals we represent should always be our priority.
Embracing Lived Experiences: Diversity is our strength, and embracing our unique identities is key. We'll explore how personal experiences are the heart and soul of our stories, adding authenticity to our causes. Celebrating these lived experiences is essential in our journey towards a more inclusive nonprofit sector.
Nonprofit Community Realities: Fai's role in leading the Nonprofit Happy Hour Facebook group provides insight to the importance of peer support and accountability in the nonprofit realm. We'll delve into the value of this community and how it fosters a supportive environment.
Links and Resources:
Connect with Fai on LinkedIn: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/fai-hassan-50561b271
Learn more about Public Outreach: https://www.publicoutreachgroup.com/
Connect with Maria on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mariario/
Support the show: https://www.buzzsprout.com/208666/supporters/new
Transcript:
00:00:00 Fai: I think you, at minimum, should be getting consent from the... If you're using an image, it's not like a stock image. Getting consent from people at least every five years if they're an adult. And if they're younger, I would say two years, right? Because being 18 and looking at yourself on an organization's website of when you were eight and probably going through a really confusing, traumatic and horrible time. When you're trying to move past that, you're trying to get into a different headspace. That's also how are you serving that way?
00:00:38 Maria: Hi, friends! Ever wondered how you could turn your big ideas into results? I'm Maria Rio, your go-to guide for helping small nonprofits have real-world impacts. Together, let's reimagine a better sector, tackle systemic issues, and yes, raise some serious cash. Welcome back to The Small Nonprofit, the podcast where your passion meets action.
00:01:07 Maria: Hi friends, welcome back to The Small Nonprofit podcast. Today I have an amazing guest for you today. I was gonna say host, an amazing guest. I'm joined today by Fai. Fai, can you introduce yourself to our audience, who you are, all the great things about you?
00:01:24 Fai: Awesome, there's not that many great things about me. I'm Fai, Fai Hassan. I use she, her pronouns. I’m currently the Associate Director of Digital Fundraising at Public Outreach, which is an organization I've been wanting to work for like, years now. So stoked that I'm there now. And yeah, prior to that, I've worked at another agency, I've worked at a couple of nonprofits, small and big, just trying to get all 31 flavors and seeing what's my favorite.
00:01:56 Maria: So you didn't start your career at Public Outreach?
00:01:58 Fai: No, which is so weird because that is how people usually start their fundraising careers in Canada as being a canvasser. But I started it in a very similar vein. I went to the University of Waterloo after I graduated high school and coming out of that, I really wanted to get some, you know, just random, like work experience. I started to panic about what would happen.
00:02:23 Fai: When I graduate, and I had nothing but like, oh, like I'm really good at attending lectures. So I got a job at the call center at the university fundraising. And so I started doing that and I realized I was really good at it and became very interested in it. And a nice sidebar story, I collected all of my best friends from that job. We still hang out.
00:02:46 Maria: Yes.
00:02:47 Fai: But yeah, that's actually how I kind of fell into fundraising. I feel like it's such a common thing for people to be like, yeah, I found this by accident and now I can't do without it. But that's definitely my story too.
00:03:01 Maria: I know. No, I definitely fell into fundraising by accident. My career did start with Public Outreach. So that's why I was like, oh, what? Wait a minute. It's like now all these, like little baby Public Outreach fundraisers are just like, oh, like, MSF or at, you know, Amnesty or wherever. And you're just like, Oh, these are big brands. And like, I used to fundraise with you on the street corner.
00:03:25 Fai: Yeah, exactly.
00:03:27 Maria: Yeah. But I loved all the friends that I made there as well. I would love to hear a little bit more about your current role there because that's something that's newer than from when I was there. So they didn't have, like a digital strategy arm. They did the face to face on the street, on malls, and then the phone call center to follow up with pledges and possible monthly giving prospects. But what exactly do you do there? And how does it help nonprofits?
00:03:58 Fai: Yeah, this is gonna seem like such a cliche answer of like no two days are the same, but truly like we get some weird and wacky problems sometimes that charities are coming to us with. So essentially, what it means is that anything slightly related to digital and fundraising, I touch. So, the digital department was started, I think maybe about eight years ago now by Whitney Brown, who I think many people in this industry know as definitely like a power fundraiser and a digital expert and leader. And it was growing pretty steadily up until the pandemic in which a bunch of our clients in face-to-face and telemarketing were like, ah, we can't do any of this anymore.
00:04:51 Fai: We have this giant budget that we need to use, and we need to acquire monthly donors. So it needs to be kind of like a same outcome, maybe, different process. So the digital department kind of exploded after that. We had, hiring a bunch of people. I think I was probably part of that. Hiring blitz and started to do digital lead conversion campaigns. So acquiring donors using the principles that we learned, on face-to-face and telemarketing, but on the digital front, which meant that we were getting people on Meta, for example, to sign on to an action, a petition if the client had one that they were really keen on advancing.
00:05:36 Fai: And from there, speaking kind of in that casual one-to-one manner in our emails up until the point of acquisition, which is a telemarketing call, a continuation of a nice casual conversation. And people were getting really great conversion rates out of that. And I actually had a chance to test that a little bit as a client. I worked at War Child a few years ago and hired Public Outreach to convert my digital leads. And even the agency who acquired my leads for me could not believe that Public Outreach were getting like the conversion rates that they were. So it was kind of funny on the call for them being like, you're getting what conversion rate? Well, while Public Outreach was briefing us.
00:06:20 Fai: So digital lead conversion campaigns are definitely a big part of what we do because people love monthly giving, we all see the value of it now. But, you know, since then, we've also done a ton of direct to donate campaigns. We do, onboarding series for the people we acquire from face to face. We've done emergency fundraising and emergency lead acquisition. We're doing a lot of that right now. And yeah, pretty much any kind of digital project a client comes to us with, unless I truly feel like I'm going to be a bad fit, happy to take on and work with clients. So Meta and Reddit and TikTok and Pinterest. We've had a pretty cool opportunity to try out a couple of different ways to acquire people online.
00:07:10 Maria: Okay, so I want to go back a little bit, but I definitely want to go into Reddit and Pinterest because those just sound so alien to me when it comes to digital strategy. But okay, do you help organizations with, like Facebook Pixel, Google Ads, or is it mostly, like social media and email like that kind of relationship building and email acquisition?
00:07:33 Fai: So it really depends on what the client wants, but a lot of the times, social media acquisition is going to be your best bang for your buck in terms of getting a large volume and a campaign you can kind of turn on and off. Google Ads, in my opinion, always necessary as a complementary part to digital acquisition because they're going to be... And I'm one of them. I'll see something on Facebook being like, I don't want to click and give Facebook the satisfaction of knowing they got me, but I'm definitely Googling it afterwards, right? And we all know these systems talk to each other. So like, I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics I'm doing in my mind to be like, this is better.
00:08:11 Fai: But you know, there's a large portion of us that will be looking for the keywords that you used in your meta ads, for example, on Google. So Google for me is that way of, like supplementing volume, but I would not run a search ad that's just a search ad for a client, unless it's something that's really big in the news and we know a bunch of people are Googling it.
00:08:34 Maria: Just for anyone who's listening and doesn't already know this, Google Ads has something called the Google Ads Grant. That's a $10,000 free ad spend thing that you can spend every month to bring attention to your organization. So we're not going to talk about that today. But just so you know that exists, go look for it. It's hard to get it set up, but once you have it set up, it's totally good.
00:08:56 Fai: Yeah, free money and you can… basically runs itself once you get it started.
00:09:04 Maria: Free money, my favorite. But let's jump back into social media. So we have, you know, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Reddit, Pinterest. I think that's usually seen by board members as a low hanging fruit. That's what they always say, right? They're like, let's focus on some low hanging fruit. Would you agree to that with that statement or that sentiment or do you think you really need a very congruent strategy? And should people get on TikTok? Should they get on Pinterest? What should they focus on?
00:09:37 Fai: Yeah. I mean, that honestly, like a lot of… There's gonna be like different charities that have different ways of being on social media. Really the fact of the matter is for a lowish cost per acquisition and high volume, it's really gonna be that Meta Network and I hate Meta Network. I even hate that I'm calling them meta right now, but here we are. but that to me is low-hanging fruit just because the universe is so wide. There's like a pretty much… Everybody in Canada is somewhat related to having a Facebook or Instagram account.
00:10:15 Fai: I would say within that platform, if you want leads that are going to be able to donate to you right away, then you want to go on Instagram just because they have a slightly younger base. So it's less likely that you're going to be talking and asking retirees on a fixed income to be donating for the first time.
00:10:36 Fai: The other platforms, Pinterest and Reddit and TikTok, you know, Steam, if you want to get real wild. Those ones I would say are only worth investing if you have organizational buy-in. And the reason I say that is that for TikTok to be successful, you got to be posting all the damn time. You got to be posting constantly. You've got to have people who are comfortable making videos and jumping on trends. So there are charities out there. Jack.org, I think is a good organization that does it well, because they are youth based so that they have a wide, you know, variety of volunteers always looking to help and post content.
00:11:21 Fai: Pinterest and Reddit - I find that you don't need that much of a presence there to get leads, but you've got to really focus on, like who you're trying to acquire. Reddit is really great for acquiring people who are not on Facebook at all. There's actually quite a huge chunk of people on Reddit who have no other social media. They just love those AITA threads. Trust me, me too. So that one is not going to fill your volume, but it will get you a different kind of donor and a different kind of lead. And then for Pinterest, also, I found that actually getting people to click is quite easy, but having people sign up on a landing page is quite difficult. So Pinterest has recently rolled out a lead form that I think is going to really transform the way that nonprofits and businesses, I guess, get new leads and new donors.
00:12:18 Maria: I also like the aspect of doing social media outreach because you're directly going to them where they're at. You're not waiting for them to come find you, which I guess, it is very face-to-face reminiscent. Yeah, definitely very interesting. What do you think about all the issues that come with something like Meta or Twitter X? A lot of nonprofits are thinking, this may not align with my values and can I part with this and what does that mean for my engagements? Do you have any thoughts around that?
00:12:53 Fai: Yeah, I think Sarah Ali, which I think a lot of people listening to this podcast would also know, had some really good insight on this when we did a LinkedIn live together maybe about a month ago. And there is this kind of, it's tough, right? Because we know that that is, in order to get like, the most efficient kind of growth for our organization so that we can continue to do this good work. These platforms are where people are. And so we gotta kind of go to them if we wanna see the kind of growth that I know we're all under pressure to achieve. But you can do other things. Like you can support unionizing. You can do a lot of other things that feed into your values, that help the people who are working at these organizations.
00:13:41 Fai: And so I think it's always worth… I stop and think every three months, even internally at Public Outreach, we're like, do we keep doing Meta because Meta keeps changing the rules all the time? It also makes it hard to keep up. But balancing that with what you're trying to achieve within your organization is also important. So I think we should continue to test, into these, other platforms. I can't say that they're much better. They probably also have pretty crappy practices for their employees. But I think it's tough to just stop because you're not feeling Facebook anymore, because of the unintended consequences that, has on the people and the environment that you serve.
00:14:30 Maria: Yeah, very true. It is, yeah, it is very complicated. But I guess we work in a very complicated space in a very complicated world. So no part of it is easy to just distinguish from other parts. Is there anything else that you want to add on social media? Because I have more questions to ask you, but they're related to storytelling and like the importance of ethical storytelling. Because I think also, you are really good at that. And I would love to share your insight with our audience.
00:14:57 Fai: Yeah, for sure. I think the only other thing that I have and we'll continue to reiterate is test, test, test, right? Like I believe we will find a way to get out of the metaverse. But it does continue. It requires, kind of perseverance and just because something's not working the first time around, take what is working, try again, as often as you can. But yeah, we'll find a way out fam. We will.
00:15:30 Maria: When you said Metaverse, my mind just, like so quickly went like, oh, yes, Metaverse with the VR and now you're going up to people in VR avatar and you're like, once they donate share, please.
00:15:39 Fai: Level of Public Outreach, street fundraising. We're just going to invite, you know, we'll join whatever kind of virtual universe there is. I think there's a thing called Second Life. We'll just, you know, start street fundraising there. Who knows? We may see some success.
00:15:54 Maria: Avatars with the best on them. Anyways. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about storytelling because I know that you share similar values when it comes to ethical storytelling. Have you seen any trends with that when it comes to digital strategy or just in general with the clients that you've been partnering with?
00:16:11 Fai: I have, I mean, generally I've seen things really improve over the last couple of years and I know it took some very difficult conversations in order to get to this point for the nonprofit sector. So in some ways, I'm quite proud to see how we all progress. I personally and this could be just, I know it's partially because of the length of time that I've been in the industry now. But feeling more comfortable in public spaces with fundraising and with storytelling in particular because I'm seeing more, you know, non-white people kind of get into the space coming from their own lived experiences and also experiencing the way other people are telling stories about you and your people and your culture.
00:16:58 Fai: So in that sense, I've seen things definitely improve. I'm also really lucky to work with a lot of nonprofits and organizations who take that very, very seriously. So we're constantly challenging each other. And I love that in a partnership. And I know we appreciate it on both sides. And I think also, like I have definitely evolved as a storyteller. And a lot of it comes from just seeing other people describe what it's like to be Sudanese and to deal with what's happening in Sudan right now. So for people who are listening/watching, I'm Sudanese. I immigrated to Canada when I was a young child. And earlier this year, something pretty horrific happened in Khartoum that meant that my, you know, my whole family had to evacuate. And this is like, you know, if you're, if you are familiar with, like brown and black families, you know that that's like hundreds of people basically dropping their lives and leaving.
00:18:03 Fai: And luckily, like, you know, we have a big enough family network so that people mostly landed on their feet. But it did mean that for a while, I was watching the world describe what my family was going through and I was pissed. I was so mad because the way that people were describing things was just not what I was hearing firsthand on the phone. And the way that even governments were talking about it is that, you know, the thoughts and prayers meme, like that's what every news article about Sudan felt like to me is thoughts and prayers and people are just thinking like, oh, this is just another blip when we knew it wasn't a blip. This was the end of something.
00:18:46 Fai: And that kind of, you know, I obviously like, took a bit of a leave from work after having to, you know, deal with helping my family in that. But when I came back, I started to think a lot more differently about, like the stories that we were telling and who we were getting them from. And some, and it really did make me second guess the way that I was describing things when I was putting together social media plans, when I was putting together emails.
00:19:18 Fai: And one of the things that made it, one of the things I started doing that made me a better storyteller, I think, is if I'm talking about something happening in Bangladesh for a while, I will spend probably like a day reading medium articles about, you know, different activists in Bangladesh and like different, you know, perspectives of people in Bangladesh. It might have nothing to do with the story that I'm trying to tell, but it helps me get into the mindset and the perspective that I should be viewing things from.
00:19:51 Fai: So yeah, that's definitely something that's changed for me this year. It's made me a better storyteller and unfortunately not coming from a great experience, but I think it does actually change the way that I tell stories.
00:20:06 Maria: I think that's really interesting, like who we're getting the stories from, because it makes me think about how those stories are also collected. So when I've been interviewed for stories… So I'm also an immigrant. I came to Canada when I was nine years old. I lived in a World Vision refugee shelter, accessed a whole bunch of charitable services, X, Y, and Z, immigrant story, I guess, right?
00:20:31 Maria: When I would talk about that in relation to fundraising and like, why are we letting people, like, starve as a policy choice? Why are we letting people go without homes as a policy choice? I would get people ask me like the most, like invasive, horribly worded questions like, so what was it like living in a refugee shelter? Not good, Brian, not good. Not enjoyable. Thank you.
00:20:58 Fai: Yeah.
00:20:58 Maria: Or what was it like having to skip school and go access food banks? And it's like, bro, it was like 15. It was not good. Obviously, the way that people ask questions can just lead to these very undignified, by default, presentation of someone and their situation and a very detriment-based story approach by default. So I think that that's really interesting that like you were able to see it firsthand with something that was happening to your family, but also on such a big scale that so many different people are talking about it in different ways, but it's all or most of it on a line to what you know is happening.
00:21:41 Fai: Yeah. And like, I think, and not to say that like I wasn't doing this before, of course, I wanted to make sure and have been for years making sure that the stories that we were telling were representative of the people telling them. I wasn't looking to get fourth-hand experiences. I wasn't looking to put anybody's trauma on display, but I think kind of two things happen when you're not doing due diligence or equipped to do storytelling. One is you either go one way and you go really hard on the trauma or the other way where you don't talk about it at all.
00:22:17 Fai: And the people you're interviewing are going to have a really clear line over what's okay to say and what isn't. And that kind of makes that extra piece of absorbing as many perspectives as possible so important because you are also kind of absorbing an understanding of culture that you may not have just from the surface, right? So I saw a lot of articles talking about details of really horrific experiences that women were going through in Sudan that I know some of them would not want. Right? So you're just like, oh, I just made it anonymous and that's fine. Okay. But that person is going to see her story everywhere now. Right? So you're not really thinking about… this person's shared something personal for you. And you decided that the way you're going to protect her is just removing her name rather than respecting the details that she told you. You could share and the ones that she was clearly coerced into sharing.
00:23:18 Fai: So there was just a lot of stuff like that, that I didn't really love. And I think there are ways to communicate how horrific things are happening without putting someone's trauma on display. You don't need to get into the details unless that person is saying, share these details. I want people to know all of this crap that we're going through and I want them to know in detail so that you can't turn away. So I think it's really important to understand from, if you're interviewing a person, what side of the fence they sit on over there? What is their boundary? Sharing first drafts and last drafts with people, right? To make sure that they don't feel like, oh, they've already gotten this far in the story and like, whatever, I'll just sign off on it. Involving them as much as possible in your storytelling.
00:24:08 Fai: And honestly, that's not always going to be possible, right? Like if you're in an international development situation, I can't interview the person that you're serving. Right? It would also, on top of everything else, just be a really weird experience for that person. But I think the way around that is really just transcribing what somebody is saying to you. Don't ask too many questions. Let them lead what they want to say. And you use it verbatim. And that, I think, is the best way, if you're not getting stories firsthand, to make sure that you're being a responsible storyteller.
00:24:46 Maria: And you can still get like, really impactful, meaningful, deep stories without asking questions in such an exploitative manner. I actually worked on creating a guide for people because I was so annoyed that I was being asked these questions. So like how they could ask these questions in a way that still solicited good information about the organization and its impact, but was very dignified and allowed that person to kind of signal to you if there were a… I want all my details out there or if they were more reserved, person. So, like the questions are like, how did you hear about our organization? So why did you start coming here? What would you say to someone who was nervous about accessing our services?
00:25:30 Maria: And I feel like those answers still solicit the same kind of emotional response in your audience and your eventual audience of your donors, but not in the individual who's telling the story. Like they get to tell as much or as little as they want. And then also giving them the opportunity to use a fake name, use their initials, use, like I've talked to refugees and they want to use a different country as their country of origin. And I get it. I get it. What do you think is the role of lived experience when it comes to ethical and dignified storytelling? Do you think that because we're seeing less, what fundraisers sorry, we're seeing more racialized fundraisers in the space that that has played into this or what do you think?
00:26:16 Fai: I think that's a huge part of it, is that seeing the face of the fundraising industry looks so different than it did when I was just exiting university and entering the big girl work life. So I think that has a lot to do with it because when I was first starting out, I definitely had imposter syndrome that meant that I was repressing a lot of my lived experience and thinking that in a way that my lived experience had no place being a part of work. And that was a pretty normal thing actually, like just even 10 years ago to think like you leave your personal life at the door and you come into work. And more and more I'm finding that my personal life is an asset in the work that we do and is not a hindrance and it's not something that I should check in the door.
00:27:10 Fai: I think it does a disservice to the nonprofits and the people and the environments that I serve to not speak truth to power when I know that my lived experience could guide us in a different direction and ultimately a direction that will serve the nonprofit better. I've definitely had my lived experience shut down early in my career because I was too young and I didn't know what I was talking about, blah, blah, blah. And so I think the way that younger and newer fundraisers entering the space, especially racialized ones who are speaking up and know that their lived experience has value is such a different vibe than when I first entered. And I'm so happy to see it. And I learn a lot from newer fundraisers and younger fundraisers entering the space as to how I show up. It's definitely like a two-way street when it comes to that.
00:28:10 Maria: I know, it's also a little bit inspiring. Like, oh, you still want to come into the sector? Phew. You know, we're doing something right as a, you know, rage flies fundraisers in the space currently.
00:28:20 Fai: Yeah, definitely.
00:28:21 Maria: So there was something else that I wanted to ask you, I think earlier when you were talking about images. So I saw that this organization, instead of taking pictures of their constituents, their service users, or community members, they were throwing descriptions in something like mid-journey to create composite AI images. So like single mom, sad, hungry, for example, to create an image, right? And then you would get a traditional 20 years ago fundraising kind of image where this person looks destitute, so sad, crying by themselves. There's like a ray of light coming in through the window. So something like completely... No, this is just horrible. But they were defending it. This organization was defending this by saying like, it's not a real person. Do you have any thoughts on that?
00:29:17 Fai: It gives me the big ick factor, to be honest. Like I get... Yeah, it is, I guess, like, a bit different than, like looking through real people's trauma, but you're still creating an image from other people's lived experiences. Like that's actually what you're doing. And so in my mind, it was like, that's still not good because you are still taking people's lived experiences to create an image and they're not even true.
00:29:49 Fai: So yeah, AI in general gives me the big ick factor. I have to admit, I find it very fun to go into those ones where you can be very creative and you're like, explain to me how the circulatory system works, but only use pasta analogies. I don't want any science talks or whatever. That, super fun. But yeah, things like that where I'm like, I don't like it. I don't think it's right. But I get why they would have tried to do that instead of an initial, looking for a real image. I get their line of thinking, but I don't agree with it.
00:30:26 Maria: Yeah, I get it too. It's also like, it's your perception of their lived experience too, right? It's not even like actually their lived experience. My other issue is like, it's based on data that's already out there. So it's based on, you know, all these like donor centric white saviors, practices and images that we've collected and perpetuated over the years. And also there's no like consent, you know, like you're not getting consent from the community to be portrayed in this manner or I don't know, I just don't like it.
00:31:00 Fai: Yeah, me neither. Definitely not something that I'd feel comfortable doing with any of my clients or advertising those kinds of images on their behalf. But yeah, I don't love it.
00:31:15 Maria: But I definitely agree, like, storytelling has come such a long way. And even being able to have these conversations, like AFP 2020-2019, was not having conversations like this. And it was like, super taboo to talk about this in a professional setting, right? So like being able to talk about this and actually question why we tell stories the way that we do, who's telling the story, who's able to give consent and those power dynamics is all really, really important.
00:31:46 Fai: Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of those things where I think we, as fundraisers, when we're trying to create a composite story or make something work, I think the way that we justify it in our heads is that, well, we're ultimately trying to achieve something good. We're trying to achieve something for the greater good. And so it's okay for me to cut corners. But if it's in any way related to the people that you're serving or the environments that you're serving, it's not a good look. It's not the way to go. And it's not for the greater good.
00:32:21 Maria: So you're taking away that consent from someone else to decide how you're portraying them?
00:32:26 Fai: I think it does. No matter what your nonprofit serves, having consent and respect for the people and the environments that you serve. And I'm using environments also because I would like, you can't be an environmental charity and be printing things off all the time, you know, that like your values as an organization also have to really live in the way that you do things and the way that you present the people that you serve and the environments that you serve.
00:32:55 Maria: Something that I see a lot of nonprofits do is also use stories and pictures like for social media or for campaigns that are literally like 10 years old. That person consented 10 years ago, they have not seen the sense, they have not thought about it since. And then when they end up on your website, they're like, Oh, why is this picture still here?
00:33:15 Fai: Yeah, I think you, at minimum, should be getting consent from, like if you're using an image, it's not like a stock image, getting consent from people at least every five years if they're an adult. And if they're younger, I would say two years, right? Because the… you know, having, being 18 and looking at yourself on an organization's website of when you were eight and probably going through a really confusing, traumatic and horrible time. When you're trying to move past that, you're trying to get into a different headspace. That's also how are you serving that way?
00:33:52 Maria: Yeah, absolutely. It'd be very, very traumatic to experience that, I think. Well, I guess it depends on what I received from the charity, but I wouldn't want, you know, little Maria going to the food bank as a picture that's always associated with me. And I don't know why I wouldn't because they talk about it so openly, but you know, there's still, like stigma and there's still like negative feelings towards and it was also like a difficult time. So it's just, yeah, we really need to think of the power that comes with storytelling.
00:34:23 Fai: Yeah, I think like the other thing and the reason that I would say specifically for charities to continue to get consent is because if you're a charity who's focused on helping people one way and you've got this picture of some, of somebody that you've helped in this one way, what you are actually portraying to people who visit your website is that this is the only identity that this person has, right, because it's not just, Maria goes to the food bank. There's so many other aspects of who you are and your values and what you manage to accomplish.
00:34:52 Fai: Like that has to be part of the story as well. Not just one day I helped somebody, but like one day, I helped somebody and here's everything that that person has become and here are the other identities that that person holds. Sometimes your charity is not going to be able to hold all of that, which is why you need to continue asking for consent to make sure that that person is okay with being portrayed that way on your website.
00:35:16 Maria: Something that I think about a lot too is like, yes, lived experience is really important to like shaping these conversations and stories. Well, for example, when I'm talking about being food insecure, maybe that was like, how old am I? Like seven years ago or something, right? But I still bring it to the forefront as, like part of why I fundraise the way that I do. Why? I'm not currently food insecure. So it also gives me this kind of, like dichotomy or issue. There where, I am talking about lived experience that I had, not have, right? When I'm talking about that specific issue, of course.
00:35:55 Maria: So I'm also interested to hear your thoughts on something like that. What is the role of fundraisers who do have lived experience with an issue, whether that's like a survivor or an illness or anything like that? And when does that lived experience become out of date to talk about or does it?
00:36:17 Fai: In a sense, I don't think it ever becomes out of date because whatever issue you were facing in the past, there probably, be elements of that, that will always hold true, right? It's always going to be a bad time. You're always going to feel scared. You're always going to feel alone. You're always going to feel like you're panicked because you don't know what's coming next. Like that stuff is all going to still be there. However, I think you can acknowledge that, you know, being for example, like using the example of being food insecure in 2023 looks a lot different than it did in 2011.
00:36:49 Fai: I have friends who are fully employed and visiting food banks and coming over to my house occasionally for me to feed them. That is very different than what it looked like in 2010. I think a lot of people with lived experience, who work in our sector, have that inner signal to say, oh, we should talk to somebody who's been dealing with this a bit more recently. But I think like as a, at the very least as a starting point and certainly in a lot of contexts like those experiences stay with you a lifetime and there are going to be some very major, you know, feelings and experiences that you've had that are going to withstand the test of time for anybody who's experiencing the same issue. So I think, like certainly you shouldn't be the only voice, but it still matters. Your experience still matters. It's still relevant. It will still continue to be relevant.
00:37:48 Maria: I love how deep this conversation went. I'm, like, TikTok to, like, trauma-based storytelling.
00:37:54 Fai: Sometimes they come together if you've been on TikTok.
00:38:00 Maria: You're on that side of TikTok, eh?
00:38:02 Fai: I'm everywhere on TikTok. It's such a weird thing. A lot of my friends make fun of me because obviously my bread and butter is in Facebook and Insta, advertising. And up until I started, like helping to mod nonprofit happy hour, I was on Facebook never. In fact, every year, one of my best friends, Nicole, would leave me a message saying, "'Happy birthday, Fai. I can't wait in several years while you'll see this and smile.” So it was like really a running joke and then this became my career, which became even funnier. But TikTok, I'm on it all day every day. I don't know why it's the biggest waste of my time and I plan to do nothing about it.
00:38:44 Maria: I'm just excited to get all the cat videos on a live feed whenever I want them. But yeah, nonprofit happy hour I think is like the only reason I go on Facebook now.
00:38:55 Fai: Yeah, I, it's, I've learned so much from modding nonprofit happy hour. There's about 50 mods and admins. And when I tell you these are the most badass nonprofit, like representatives that you've ever seen. And I've not met one of them in real life. Like this is all just coming from online interactions. There is never a day I go on, I don't mod something, I don't talk to an admin, and I don't learn something profound about the way that I should be, you know, managing my life or my career.
00:39:30 Fai: But it certainly doesn't come without some issues like we'd be kicking people out all the time because I was just asking and one of the things, one of the rules that we have that I think is not taken well a lot of the times is no dirty deletes. So if you are posting something and you make a comment that is a bit out of pocket or very out of pocket or what were you thinking when you said this? A lot of the times, we have like 50, more than 50,000 people on that group.
00:40:04 Fai: And a lot of people will put in a lot of time and emotional labor to course correct, to give you a different perspective, to teach you something. And for you to delete everybody's work like that is not cool and that's not why we exist. It should be out there. Nobody is going to hate you for learning something. And yeah, a lot of the times, we get these like dirty deletes and then people arguing with us in the DM, being like, why did–
00:40:32 Fai: Well, I saw what I did was wrong, so I deleted it. So like, why are you kicking me out? But yeah, there's definitely a lot of really wild conversations that happen on non-profit happy hour, which give me both hope and despair in equal measure.
00:40:47 Maria: Okay, the dirty delete rule is something that I've been obsessed with for like, I think as long as you've implemented it, I think it was like two years ago or something like that. But I was just, like thinking right now, talking about storytelling and you know, who gets to tell the narrative. It's like by dirty deleting your own posts where you're supposed to be learning and reflecting, like you're changing the narrative of like, I didn't do something wrong. You know, like I am an innocent person. This was just a mistake. And people are ganging up on me. So I deleted it.
00:41:16 Maria: But yeah, I think I learned a lot from that group as well. So thanks so much for moderating it. I know it's not easy. There's a lot of people who ask a lot of interesting questions, but it's a really homey place, that group. Like I just feel like people do get the opportunity to get the help that they need when it comes to the nonprofit issues that they're facing and to get some, like comradeship of, like, hey, my board member is committing fraud. What do I do? It's like, good luck. Those questions come up daily. What's going on with boards?
00:41:50 Fai: But yeah, it is, it's actually such a rich place of information for pretty much any problem you've ever had in your nonprofit. Somebody's probably posted about it on there. And it really doesn't matter how weird the problem is, somebody's posted about it and gotten a whole bunch, 20 other people are like, I've been dealing with the same thing, here's what I did. So yeah, it's a really, really great resource. And I'm very lucky and honored to be a part of that team.
00:42:17 Maria: Yeah, and it's obviously not just board drama. There's a lot of really interesting, how to fundraise and how are you trying to pivot from this to this? And what CRM should I use in X, Y, and Z? But the board drama is what keeps me there.
00:42:31 Fai: Yeah, it's honestly, I know I was just like, making fun of people for being on Reddit on those AITA threads. I'm definitely on those AITA threads and I'm definitely watching the Facebook group being like what happened to that board member? I must know. So yeah, there's that, like part of me that really loves reality shows and that kind of seeps into other aspects of my life.
00:42:53 Maria: Same, same, same. Is there anything else you want to leave our audience with today? Thank you so much already. This is always so lovely.
00:43:00 Fai: Yeah, I think, I mean, particularly to racialize fundraisers is, like your lived experience matters and do I, you know, I'm speaking from a place that I had imposter syndrome and would often not value my lived experience is like you are more than your education and you are more than your experience, your professional experience, and bring your whole self into work. Bring the whole mess into work. Like, honestly, it can only do you good.
00:43:33 Maria: I love that. Well, Fai, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm sure our listeners learned so much about so many different topics, so this was super exciting. Where can people find you if they want to continue the conversation?
00:43:46 Fai: Yeah, I had it, first of all, thank you very much for being such an awesome host. I had a great time. You've made me not feel nervous at all, which is often what happens when I'm in these situations. You can find me on LinkedIn, considering I just called myself out for not checking Meta. Find me on LinkedIn. I'm so much better about checking it now than I used to be. So yeah, you can just find me at LinkedIn/Fai Hassan. I'm happy to connect with anyone, talk about any of the stuff that we've talked about in the podcast or like I said, Reddit, AITA or reality shows. So reach out to me about any one of those topics.
00:44:21 Maria: Okay. We got to talk about reality shows for sure, but I think that's a different topic.
00:44:25 Fai: Yeah, different [podcast].
00:44:26 Maria: Yeah, different podcast. But thank you all for tuning in today. Thank you for listening to what we've had to say. We also do have this on YouTube, so youtube.com at Go Further Together if you would like to see our lovely faces. And for now, we'll see you next time. Bye.
00:44:44 Fai: Bye.
00:44:48 Maria: Thank you for listening to another episode of The Small Nonprofit. If you want to continue the conversation, feel free to connect with our guests directly or find me on LinkedIn. Let's keep moving money to mission and prioritizing our wellbeing. Bye for now.
